David Alexander Marsilia Just got an e-mail from my Congressman Ted Poe. In which he states, "I am ONE of only 17 of the 435 members of Congress to vote NO to ALL of the previous stimulus and bailout bills. I can assure you that I will vote NO on this one as well." in reference to the latest $50 Billion proposal from the administration.
Friday at 12:46pm · Comment · Like · Unsubscribe
David Alexander Marsilia I don't agree with the Congressman on everything but it is certainly shocking that only 17 members voted consistently against ALL of the bailouts
Potential voter #1: is it really David!!!!. One , they shouldn't have done so anyway, but nearly all of them would have gained some local benefit from them at some time.... self preservation.
Sarah "absolutely no principles" Palin, the love child of the tea party is allowed a free pass for all the pork she garnered for Alaska and now has the gall to decry them at every opportunist moment.... that woman makes my puke, puke! Friday at 5:33pm · Unlike · 1 person
Sarah "absolutely no principles" Palin, the love child of the tea party is allowed a free pass for all the pork she garnered for Alaska and now has the gall to decry them at every opportunist moment.... that woman makes my puke, puke! Friday at 5:33pm · Unlike · 1 person
David Alexander Marsilia No, I really am not that shocked, but i'm trying to remain hopeful and optimistic. You would enjoy this series in Slate on the "Great Divergence", a good in depth academic look at the Plutocracy:
http://www.slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266026/ Friday at 5:51pm · Like ·
http://www.slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266026/ Friday at 5:51pm · Like ·
Potential voter #2: (potential voter #1’s name), as Olbermann say' in his voice: That woman is an idiot... Friday at 8:27pm · Unlike · 1 person ·
David Alexander Marsilia Interesting conversation with some folks on Senator John Cornyn's (R TX) facebook page. Believe it or not, much of it was actually intelligent.
Did you guys know that I've actually heard Ms. Palin speak in person earlier this year? Any doubts I may have had about her lack of any redeeming quality were put to rest listening to her screech for over a half hour about her pickup truck. Friday at 8:34pm · Like · 1 person ·
Did you guys know that I've actually heard Ms. Palin speak in person earlier this year? Any doubts I may have had about her lack of any redeeming quality were put to rest listening to her screech for over a half hour about her pickup truck. Friday at 8:34pm · Like · 1 person ·
Potential voter #2: Lol, the following she has garnered gives Barnum's maxim new meaning... Friday at 8:36pm · Unlike · 1 person ·
Potential voter #1: I'm surprised you had any lingering doubts about her David. She is without doubt the most pointless "politician" I have ever come across in my lifetime. Without wit, without principle, without morale fiber, and without one ounce of curiosity about the world.
The fact that so many in the Tea Party movement think so highly of her gives me all I need to know in terms of their judgment, goals, and attitude towards everything; the woman is positively disgusting (i have cleaned that up immeasurably), and as a liberal leaner, I only hope beyond hope she is on the GOP ticket next time. Friday at 9:04pm · Like ·
The fact that so many in the Tea Party movement think so highly of her gives me all I need to know in terms of their judgment, goals, and attitude towards everything; the woman is positively disgusting (i have cleaned that up immeasurably), and as a liberal leaner, I only hope beyond hope she is on the GOP ticket next time. Friday at 9:04pm · Like ·
Potential voter #3: what's the counterfactual if there were no bailouts? i am fairly sure we would be in a worse position than we are now. Saturday at 12:58am · Like ·
Potential voter #4: To me it's just sad that this fellow's major source of pride is in being a large hemorrhoid: always making it difficult for anything to pass. And yet some people believe that the country needs more of these. :-((( Saturday at 5:55am · Like ·
David Alexander Marsilia The counterfactual is that the finance industry operates in an environment of freedom from failure. As long as an industry is guaranteed this position than they will continue to engage in risky behavior that no amount of regulation can ever overcome.
More shocking to me than the 17 reps who stood for the true free market against pro business is that the liberal viewpoint justifies the intervention of bailouts with the same logic as a stimulus.
" According to Edgar Browning, professor of economics at Texas A&M University, "Incredible as it seems, Americans transfer more than a trillion dollars each year to low-income families through a bewildering array of programs, all in the name of fighting poverty and inequality."..."If a trillion dollars were simply given to those counted as poor by the federal government (37 million in 2005), it would amount to $27,000 per person. That's $81,000 for a family of three, higher than the median income of all American families, and far greater than the poverty threshold of $15,577." Lee Duigon http://chalcedon.edu/research/articles/the-poverty-and-justice-bible-part-2-of-3/
As I wrote the congressman in support of his position, if, and that's a very big and qualified if, Keynesian stimulus has any validity it should come as direct payment to the broadest number of citizens. Meddling in the marketplace by directed federal intervention always has a distorting effect and the creation of unintended (usually negative) consequences.
The bailout of Chrysler several decades ago and the repayment by them with interest of the loan has been put forward as proof that bailouts work, yet here we are bailing that same company out again and adding GM to the list and all within less than a generation.
Causes
By Mayo Clinic staff
The veins around your anus tend to stretch under pressure and may bulge or swell. Swollen veins — hemorrhoids — can develop from an increase in pressure in the lower rectum. Factors that might cause increased pressure include:
Straining during bowel movements
Sitting for long periods of time on the toilet
Chronic diarrhea or constipation
Obesity
Pregnancy
Anal intercourse
It's also possible to inherit a tendency to develop hemorrhoids. Hemorrhoids are more likely as you get older because the tissues that support the veins in your rectum and anus can weaken and stretch with aging.
Poe's position is symptomatic of failed liberal policies as these things do not occur in a naturally balanced and appropriately used system. Thanks for supporting my position, Potential voter #4’s name. Saturday at 4:19pm · Like ·
More shocking to me than the 17 reps who stood for the true free market against pro business is that the liberal viewpoint justifies the intervention of bailouts with the same logic as a stimulus.
" According to Edgar Browning, professor of economics at Texas A&M University, "Incredible as it seems, Americans transfer more than a trillion dollars each year to low-income families through a bewildering array of programs, all in the name of fighting poverty and inequality."..."If a trillion dollars were simply given to those counted as poor by the federal government (37 million in 2005), it would amount to $27,000 per person. That's $81,000 for a family of three, higher than the median income of all American families, and far greater than the poverty threshold of $15,577." Lee Duigon http://chalcedon.edu/research/articles/the-poverty-and-justice-bible-part-2-of-3/
As I wrote the congressman in support of his position, if, and that's a very big and qualified if, Keynesian stimulus has any validity it should come as direct payment to the broadest number of citizens. Meddling in the marketplace by directed federal intervention always has a distorting effect and the creation of unintended (usually negative) consequences.
The bailout of Chrysler several decades ago and the repayment by them with interest of the loan has been put forward as proof that bailouts work, yet here we are bailing that same company out again and adding GM to the list and all within less than a generation.
Causes
By Mayo Clinic staff
The veins around your anus tend to stretch under pressure and may bulge or swell. Swollen veins — hemorrhoids — can develop from an increase in pressure in the lower rectum. Factors that might cause increased pressure include:
Straining during bowel movements
Sitting for long periods of time on the toilet
Chronic diarrhea or constipation
Obesity
Pregnancy
Anal intercourse
It's also possible to inherit a tendency to develop hemorrhoids. Hemorrhoids are more likely as you get older because the tissues that support the veins in your rectum and anus can weaken and stretch with aging.
Poe's position is symptomatic of failed liberal policies as these things do not occur in a naturally balanced and appropriately used system. Thanks for supporting my position, Potential voter #4’s name. Saturday at 4:19pm · Like ·
David Alexander Marsilia As for the progressive position, how can business be both the source of all evil and the recipient of constant government propping up? Two, of many potential reasons come to mind, 1) The failed capitalist oppressors have to be appeased to prevent endangerment to promises made to labor for excessive wages above market clearing rates as well as promises of future benefits and pensions. 2) The political economy of favors and contributions must be protected at all cost. The symbiotic granting of special privileges and campaign funds keeps eyes on Washington as the answer to everything.
I will continue to maintain that much of the progressive electorate's position is driven by the most cynical form of self interest. The expansion of so-called noble professions ( teachers, social service providers and bureaucrats, research scientist etc) being preferred to the grueling and mind-numbing requirement to produce something of value in the marketplace. Having done everything from bagging 50lb sacks of herbicide, delivering food products over a 600 square mile territory, and administering a $2,000,000 a week inventory that the work of commerce is no easy task. The feeling of accomplishment in such activities is difficult but getting the ditches dug is a necessary task. Saturday at 4:51pm · Like ·
I will continue to maintain that much of the progressive electorate's position is driven by the most cynical form of self interest. The expansion of so-called noble professions ( teachers, social service providers and bureaucrats, research scientist etc) being preferred to the grueling and mind-numbing requirement to produce something of value in the marketplace. Having done everything from bagging 50lb sacks of herbicide, delivering food products over a 600 square mile territory, and administering a $2,000,000 a week inventory that the work of commerce is no easy task. The feeling of accomplishment in such activities is difficult but getting the ditches dug is a necessary task. Saturday at 4:51pm · Like ·
Potential voter #3 right; i understand that in general firms should be allowed to fail. i guess the caveat there is that when credit and equity markets freeze, if we allow a majority of financial firms to fail, the economy would inevitably go down it. i think you have to separate "bailout" from "stimulus", as well as separate the factors that leads to the action. A tax cut (which i interpret your comments to mean) would have done little or nothing as the global economy was hanging at the precipice.
Overall, I have no problem with the liquidationist prospective, except that is untenable from both a political and economic perspective. Saturday at 4:52pm · Like ·
Overall, I have no problem with the liquidationist prospective, except that is untenable from both a political and economic perspective. Saturday at 4:52pm · Like ·
Potential voter #2 (Potential voter #3’ name), that is about as much clarity as I have seen brought to this matter. Those who would like to color this admin's action as a 'gov't takeover' of markets are being intellectually dishonest in the very least. No offense intended to opposing viewpoints.
The unpredictable risk to credit markets and the point you make about equity and liquidity flow in a chaotic market could have triggered mass pandemonium. I follow the argument that the economy was 'saved'...I know it's hard to stratify but it makes it no less plausible... Saturday at 5:21pm · Like ·
The unpredictable risk to credit markets and the point you make about equity and liquidity flow in a chaotic market could have triggered mass pandemonium. I follow the argument that the economy was 'saved'...I know it's hard to stratify but it makes it no less plausible... Saturday at 5:21pm · Like ·
David Alexander Marsilia Just so where not talking past each other, stimulus and bailouts are two separate issues. The other thing is timing of reaction and pro-active actions. Yes, bailout is nearly incontrovertible as a necessary preventative in the current crisis but what about over the long term and into the future. The old joke about keeping on doing what has failed and expecting different results applies... right?
And actually, Potential voter #3’s name... I'm actually re-floating an old idea of Guaranteed Minimum Income rather than either the welfare system or a tax cut. Not so much for ultimate application but as a starting point for discussion. Saturday at 8:35pm · Like ·
And actually, Potential voter #3’s name... I'm actually re-floating an old idea of Guaranteed Minimum Income rather than either the welfare system or a tax cut. Not so much for ultimate application but as a starting point for discussion. Saturday at 8:35pm · Like ·
Potential voter #3: i apologize if you took offense or you thought i imputed certain thoughts to you that you didn't, david. i think i was more responding to the politicians (and my frustration with conservatives) than with you. i agree that a minimum income maybe a good i always find your ideas quite enlightening. Saturday at 9:05pm · Like ·
David Alexander Marsilia No offence even perceived... only looking to clarify the substance of our basic agreement which is substantial. Saturday at 10:09pm · Like ·
Potential voter #4: On the right-wing Republicans as hemorrhoids concept, you have driven the analogy to the breaking point in a different direction than I expected. More predictable would have been to comment about the need to reduce the "anal function" of the rest of the government. Even so, to me the point remains that Poe & Co. are proud of inhibiting action rather than proposing workable solutions. Whether or not that is symptomatic of greater problems, IMHO it is just sad.
The matter of Bush having wanted to avoid at all costs the historical label of being the president on whose watch GM failed, the ad hoc ways in which both the present and the previous administration have dealt with banking crises, and the theoretical uncertainty about how effective New Deal-type job creation schemes are in the long run are all things I suspect we can agree about. I would further suspect that if I were to start preaching here about the virtues of making public education more responsible and effective as an investment in the future, it wouldn't be hard to reach agreement on that one.
To me the primary issue, however, is whether we are voting for those who promise to make life difficult for the other guys, or those who are genuinely interested in looking honestly at problems and proposing workable solutions. I'm seriously discouraged that Poe finds the former strategy more useful. I believe that some Republicans are capable of the latter, but... Yesterday at 2:40am · Like ·
The matter of Bush having wanted to avoid at all costs the historical label of being the president on whose watch GM failed, the ad hoc ways in which both the present and the previous administration have dealt with banking crises, and the theoretical uncertainty about how effective New Deal-type job creation schemes are in the long run are all things I suspect we can agree about. I would further suspect that if I were to start preaching here about the virtues of making public education more responsible and effective as an investment in the future, it wouldn't be hard to reach agreement on that one.
To me the primary issue, however, is whether we are voting for those who promise to make life difficult for the other guys, or those who are genuinely interested in looking honestly at problems and proposing workable solutions. I'm seriously discouraged that Poe finds the former strategy more useful. I believe that some Republicans are capable of the latter, but... Yesterday at 2:40am · Like ·
David Alexander Marsilia I am nothing if not unpredictable.
The challenge of governance from a Libertarian's viewpoint is, and always be, that in seeing the existence of certain elements of government AS the problem; they are by nature in the role of rule by "NO." The reason that I applaud Poe and these other 17 congressmen's standing fast is primarily on the bailouts, which I see as a form of corporate welfare and an encouragement of "risk free" financial institutions.
I do have a Libertarian friendly idea about education. In some regards a public education is yet another form of corporate welfare. The debate usually centers on expanding educational opportunities to the poor and otherwise disenfranchised, as if the mere expansion of capabilities creates in and of itself opportunities and jobs. If, hypothetically, the entire government apparatus of public education were to be scheduled to end in let’s say... arbitrarily... October 22, 2016; then a business case would rapidly have to be put in place to establish a system of private schools. Otherwise, within a generation or two no one would be capable of running the place without trained engineers, lawyers, accountants, welders, etc not to mention a useful level of literacy.
Churches, the soon to be unemployed masses of educational professionals, teachers, professors and researchers would have to scurry to establish an entirely new mechanism of pedagogy. Business would have to make a new set of investment decisions, exclusive of the eliminated tax liability, on keeping the pipeline full of educated and capable participants. Consideration would have to be made for populations with fewer resources and this would certainly test the commitment by some groups to social justice in an entirely new way.
This is where I normally depart from my progressive friends. When they say, "genuinely interested in looking honestly at problems and proposing workable solutions" the automatic assumption being a government solution... with an underlying logic being that without a government solution no other mechanisms exist or will be brought to bear on the problem. Why assume that Washington DC, with its history of failure is the only means for establishing or creating community solutions. Why assume that solutions created in a democratic process by legislative mechanisms is superior to other forms of voluntary cooperation and collaboration. Societies rise and fall far more on the underlying strength of the validity and practice of moral truth than on the form of institutions. Yesterday at 3:35am · Like ·
The challenge of governance from a Libertarian's viewpoint is, and always be, that in seeing the existence of certain elements of government AS the problem; they are by nature in the role of rule by "NO." The reason that I applaud Poe and these other 17 congressmen's standing fast is primarily on the bailouts, which I see as a form of corporate welfare and an encouragement of "risk free" financial institutions.
I do have a Libertarian friendly idea about education. In some regards a public education is yet another form of corporate welfare. The debate usually centers on expanding educational opportunities to the poor and otherwise disenfranchised, as if the mere expansion of capabilities creates in and of itself opportunities and jobs. If, hypothetically, the entire government apparatus of public education were to be scheduled to end in let’s say... arbitrarily... October 22, 2016; then a business case would rapidly have to be put in place to establish a system of private schools. Otherwise, within a generation or two no one would be capable of running the place without trained engineers, lawyers, accountants, welders, etc not to mention a useful level of literacy.
Churches, the soon to be unemployed masses of educational professionals, teachers, professors and researchers would have to scurry to establish an entirely new mechanism of pedagogy. Business would have to make a new set of investment decisions, exclusive of the eliminated tax liability, on keeping the pipeline full of educated and capable participants. Consideration would have to be made for populations with fewer resources and this would certainly test the commitment by some groups to social justice in an entirely new way.
This is where I normally depart from my progressive friends. When they say, "genuinely interested in looking honestly at problems and proposing workable solutions" the automatic assumption being a government solution... with an underlying logic being that without a government solution no other mechanisms exist or will be brought to bear on the problem. Why assume that Washington DC, with its history of failure is the only means for establishing or creating community solutions. Why assume that solutions created in a democratic process by legislative mechanisms is superior to other forms of voluntary cooperation and collaboration. Societies rise and fall far more on the underlying strength of the validity and practice of moral truth than on the form of institutions. Yesterday at 3:35am · Like ·
Potential voter #4: If there's one thing I respect about you besides your honesty, it's your unpredictability in some respects. ;-)
Part of the question comes back to Winston Churchill's famous line about democracy being the worst form of government, other than...
If the voters can't decide to appoint representatives which represent their collective interests -- including providing civil defense, education, environmental management, etc. -- then those tasks fall to self-appointed aristocracies, military dictatorships, theocratic councils, organized crime syndicates or worse. Thus I strongly believe in empowering elected officials to do as much as possible to serve the interests of "We the People", with the primary restrictions being that these elected representatives should (in theory) be careful not to promise to fulfill unrealistic fantasies the electorate may have, and they should not agree to deny human rights to groups that many in the electorate happen to hate. I agree, this rarely works properly in practice, but given the other alternatives, I believe that building this sort of democratic control within societies is the best we can do.
And of course I respect the fact that YMMV. Yesterday at 4:09am · Like ·
Part of the question comes back to Winston Churchill's famous line about democracy being the worst form of government, other than...
If the voters can't decide to appoint representatives which represent their collective interests -- including providing civil defense, education, environmental management, etc. -- then those tasks fall to self-appointed aristocracies, military dictatorships, theocratic councils, organized crime syndicates or worse. Thus I strongly believe in empowering elected officials to do as much as possible to serve the interests of "We the People", with the primary restrictions being that these elected representatives should (in theory) be careful not to promise to fulfill unrealistic fantasies the electorate may have, and they should not agree to deny human rights to groups that many in the electorate happen to hate. I agree, this rarely works properly in practice, but given the other alternatives, I believe that building this sort of democratic control within societies is the best we can do.
And of course I respect the fact that YMMV. Yesterday at 4:09am · Like ·
David Alexander Marsilia Much of my unpredictability is purely gaps in knowledge combined with an overactive imagination. oh... and an undisciplined ADD driven world view... with a Pascal's Wager theology. And finally a poetic sensibility that the spiritual is real and absolute as revealed in the Christian scriptures.
Is that a summary of Churchill's view on democracy or a full quote? That's a good one. Another friend posted a Franklin quote with some parallels.
"The Remissness of our People in Paying Taxes is highly blameable; the Unwillingness to pay them is still more so. I see, in some Resolutions of Town Meetings, a Remonstrance against giving Congress a Power to take, as they call it, the People's Money out of their Pockets, tho' only to pay the Interest and Principal of Debts duly contracted. They seem to mistake the Point. Money, justly due from the People, is their Creditors' Money, and no longer the Money of the People, who, if they withold it, should be compell'd to pay by some Law.
All Property, indeed, except the Savage's temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention. Hence the Public has the Right of Regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the Quantity and the Uses of it. All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages." -- letter from Benjamin Franklin to Robert Morris, dated 25 Dec. 1783
Is that a summary of Churchill's view on democracy or a full quote? That's a good one. Another friend posted a Franklin quote with some parallels.
"The Remissness of our People in Paying Taxes is highly blameable; the Unwillingness to pay them is still more so. I see, in some Resolutions of Town Meetings, a Remonstrance against giving Congress a Power to take, as they call it, the People's Money out of their Pockets, tho' only to pay the Interest and Principal of Debts duly contracted. They seem to mistake the Point. Money, justly due from the People, is their Creditors' Money, and no longer the Money of the People, who, if they withold it, should be compell'd to pay by some Law.
All Property, indeed, except the Savage's temporary Cabin, his Bow, his Matchcoat, and other little Acquisitions, absolutely necessary for his Subsistence, seems to me to be the Creature of public Convention. Hence the Public has the Right of Regulating Descents, and all other Conveyances of Property, and even of limiting the Quantity and the Uses of it. All the Property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore by other Laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages." -- letter from Benjamin Franklin to Robert Morris, dated 25 Dec. 1783
After working quite diligently to support your position and consider a multitude of creative options I read your post containing a quote from 2065 years ago. And I wondered...
In these particular economic times by what right under heaven do you have to quote these particular words, "People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance." from a pre-Christian pagan no less. What kind of political motivation engenders these words except appeasement of your corporate cronies? After discussing issues on your behalf, I now feel betrayed and motivated to offer a scathing critique of your insensitive, ill timed and inappropriate remarks.
Folks are diligently looking for work or to create businesses and you want to make a statement about people needing to learn to work!!!!
My hope that you were unique in recognizing the failure of crony-capitalism and too big to fail is quite gone and I now realize you have no more capability of governing than the progressives or the more obvious corporate lackeys in the Republican Party.
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